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Major update , BETA is Available (0.2.8.2) !

Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby EatmyAss77 on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:02

I use only the ASC Mac...I hope to see ya today to try the new laps
with the maximum of players !
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Etienne on Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:23

Mac wrote:Also ... what driving aids (if any) do the AI use? I'm actually pretty curious. I'm assuming they don't use any (except maybe ASC) due to how they now powerslide the majority of Loopings :P

AI use ASR on High (exept during start), ABS on High, ASC On, and ESP on Medium.
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Mac on Sun Jul 08, 2012 15:33

The AI turn ASR off at the start and then turn it back on during the race...? interesting. o_o

Nice to know what settings they use, though. I looked through the one video I have uploaded of NSR and noted I used only ABS and ASC (in the photon traction control is redundant due to its understeer) ... there's also something called AGB, which seems to have been removed from this version of the game. What was that, exactly? Or has it simply been renamed to something else?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHM0Vx-934k


Anyways, F1 is finished today, so I'm going to play the game. I very quickly ran my way through the skin editor to recreate a skin for the Photon, and the editor bug is easy to recreate. I did this:

1) Edit a skin (in my case I created a new one)
2) Go into the skin editor. (I went and made a skin anyway)
3) Backed out and saved.
4) Unlike when I went in, the car model I edited a skin on will now be in "3D mode" despite there being no option in the skin editor to go to 3D view mode.
5) View a different vehicle (it will switch to 2D view), then switch back to the one you just edited. It'll go back to 3D view, the background will go white and if you use Bloom, you'll get a TON of bloom.
6) Back out of the menu altogether, then go back into the menu. The menu itself will now be moved to the bottom left of the screen rather than centre-left as it was beforehand.


I'll quickly record and upload a video.

edit

Compressing and then uploading the video. It only happens when you're editing a skin on a car model if it's -not already in 3D view- when you start. For some reason selecting my custom skin to modify it set it into 3D view, and I had to go create a new skin on a new vehicle to get the bug.

Video will be here once it's uploaded. I'm going AFK. Give it 45 minutes (from the time of this post) if it doesn't load up. If it says it's blocked due to music I'll get rid of the music track on it and it'll work then.
http://youtu.be/wZJkaaLKoYQ

Also whilst I'm here ... is it possible to change the colours of the stickers in the paint tool? I don't see how to do it.
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Mac on Sun Jul 08, 2012 17:54

By the way, I have a question:

Is the respawn function used in -every- game mode, now?


I've noticed when practicing on the new tracks that when I flip the car after a few seconds it respawns. I can understand it being implemented for Training and for Online sessions but I think in official races and in Championships it should be turned off. Part of the challenge of some of the tracks (such as jump it up reverse) is navigating the drivers that have rolled their cars over and retired.

I think it should be added as an option for races, rather than a guaranteed thing. I also think the default Official rules should have it disabled.
Obviously I can understand why it's added ... like I said. Also if it IS disabled in championship I apologise but I'm just guessing as I'm using Official rules, and I've rolled my car twice on Multiplex and the game reset me.


edit

Oh, and another question. Derp. Sorry for all the questions.

Regarding the AI ... have you modified their behaviour at all? I remember on the previous build of the game that the backmarkers were slow mostly because they braked a lot for the corners. However I just went past the yellow car on the main straight and he was deliberately only going about 240km/h whereas I was doing 290km/h. Has it always been that way or has it been changed?


Also a word of warning ... the AI are a little too easy to beat on Multiplex. Their racing lines on some of the corners might need to be modified. I beat Bing's qualification time by over 3 seconds on Pro, whereas on most other tracks I can get half a second at best, and usually a tenth or two above.


Okay, I just checked the replay. Dude was going 212km/h on the main straight. o_O and only the top 4 AI drivers were actually going flat out. All the others have speed limits. I find that a bit strange but I suppose there's a reason for it.
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Etienne on Sun Jul 08, 2012 20:05

Mac wrote:there's also something called AGB, which seems to have been removed from this version of the game. What was that, exactly? Or has it simply been renamed to something else?

AGB was "Automatic Gear Box", but we decided to remove it since no one uses it in this Game, same for auto clutch.

Mac wrote:Also whilst I'm here ... is it possible to change the colours of the stickers in the paint tool? I don't see how to do it.
Yes, you need to drag and drop a colour from the palette to the sticker.

Thanks a lot for the bug tracking of the skin tool and for the video. I'll track this and try to correct it asap.
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Etienne on Sun Jul 08, 2012 20:34

Mac wrote:Is the respawn function used in -every- game mode, now?

Yes it is, we found that the game was hard enough, and that having a respawn was not a luxury. Of course, for the best pilots that like the "Old school", insane hardness of the original concept this may seem like killing the game play. I was expecting feedback like yours would come very soon from the best pilots :mrgreen: .
In fact the game is still very hard in Pro mode, and if you respawn it means you wont get the best race time you could have done anyway.
Even if I believe like you that it should be removed in official rules, I'm thinking of 95 % of other players. We've watched quite a lot of casual gamers playing NSR, and most of them would just never manage to finish the race without respawn. I think maybe a compromise would be to remove it in PRO mode only. I also believe that it should be a Host option for multiplayer and I will probably add it soon.

Having played the old version in multiplayer recently, I noticed that very few races were actually finished without everyone being dead, and I don't think a racing game should be so hard. There are still many ways to kill the car, like burning the engine, or killing the wheels or the chassis.

Mac wrote:Regarding the AI ... have you modified their behaviour at all? I remember on the previous build of the game that the backmarkers were slow mostly because they braked a lot for the corners. However I just went past the yellow car on the main straight and he was deliberately only going about 240km/h whereas I was doing 290km/h. Has it always been that way or has it been changed?
The behaviour has changed a bit, but it's always been like that. It's the only way to make low skill AI. If we only reduce speed in turns this would result in very hard to beat AI (again, for most players). I agree this may seem strange, but since AI must go full speed in loops and in some jumps, we had to do this. In the previous build, there were tracks where there was nearly no difference between good and bad AI, and we changed that so they're more spread. But doing the best times and wining races is still an insane challenge in most cases.

Mac wrote:Also a word of warning ... the AI are a little too easy to beat on Multiplex. Their racing lines on some of the corners might need to be modified. I beat Bing's qualification time by over 3 seconds on Pro, whereas on most other tracks I can get half a second at best, and usually a tenth or two above.

The multiplex is one of the most challenging track, and it's the same for the AI. But it's true that some trajectories could be improved. The thing is, they also need to finish the race without killing suspensions and that's not so easy ! We had to turn them down a bit otherwise it's a carnage. Unlike many racing games, including so called "simulation references", in NSR the AI have the same physics as the players, and have to deal with damages. I can tell you it's a programming challenge to deal with that as well as all the other special things of the game (loops, ramps, jumps, inverted flying, dealing with engine heat, etc.).
Anyway, with the scoring calculation system we have, there's always a way to improve your score if you do a better race time, even if you always finish first.
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Mac on Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:01

The multiplex is one of the most challenging track, and it's the same for the AI. But it's true that some trajectories could be improved. The thing is, they also need to finish the race without killing suspensions and that's not so easy ! We had to turn them down a bit otherwise it's a carnage.


I think I actually understand now why you 'toned down' the AI on that track ... because I just came out of attempting a championship, and I finished that race (bear in mind it's 6 laps..) with 95% damage to the suspension. Might not seem to much but I remembered I used to do a lot of '10-lap endurance' races on Jump It Up Reverse, where the key was to conserve the car's suspension which meant compensating some jumps to prevent getting damaged ... playing the track flat-out, the strategy that works for a 6-lap race will likely get you wrecked out on lap 7 or 8 ...

That's what made me realise. If I had done a 10 lap race I would have had to compromise some of the jumps ... most likely the dive into the tube. I wouldn't have finished otherwise ... I would have wrecked out on lap 7. x.x


But in itself does this explain why the High-speed courses (Loopings and Twisted Iron) have more 'difficult' AI than the acrobatic and supercross tracks? You'll notice if you can find my championship results (the one I just did) that I only got 94% of the total points ... because I literally could NOT qualify first and beat the lap or race times on Twisted Iron (in fact I even had to settle for 2nd on Twisted Iron Reverse, because my car just does not have the acceleration that Bing's Air-XS does). I think in that respect that makes Twisted Iron the most difficult course in the game ... that is, to win. I think Hot Rusk Reverse (did I get the name right? derp) is the hardest because the track is so unpredictable ... I restarted that one at least 30 times because I kept hitting the posts on the shortcut or landing and then spinning out for no reason. x.x


Oh well. My hands hurt like CRAZY now because of all of that. I'm gonna have to attempt again tomorrow ... I'll probably have to deliberately use the Air-XS on Twisted Iron to get the gold medal..
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Etienne on Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:57

It does explain why AI is harder to beat on Aerobatic tracks. Dealing with the engine heat on these tracks is very hard, but it's easier (for the AI) than dealing with suspensions.
But it is possible to have the pole position on every track. It's not the case for the race time, so we'll probably tune them down a bit on some tracks.
The Hot Rusk reverse is indeed one of the hardest tracks, especially now that the AI can take shortcuts too :mrgreen:, and it's true that landing is always challenging when you take risks.
In the evening don't hesitate to have a look if there are a multiplayer session, it would be a honor to race against you...
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Mac on Mon Jul 09, 2012 14:27

I don't really mind the challenge per-se ... although I was getting very frustrated last night because I couldn't keep up with Bing in the race. Annoyingly enough I DID beat his qualification time during the race, so I know that on Twisted Iron Reverse his qualification time IS beatable ... but I think that on those two tracks the AI could be toned down a little - but LITERALLY only by a tenth or two in the race itself. Their race pace on Loopings is actually beatable - Bing usually gets tangled up with the guys in 3rd and 4th at some of the corners in the first lap.

I don't think that the top AI need completely nerfing, because that would take away the challenge. I do think on some of the other tracks and especially the new circuits, their qualification times could be improved a little, and on Multiplex some of the corners could maybe be taken a little better (I've found compromising the jump out of the tube to land early helps to negotiate the next corner and set up for the hairpin). The most time I'm gaining on the AI on that track is the second corner (hugging the outer wall has proven to be faster in that corner than the line the AI take), the corner after the upside-down loop, and the hairpin bend at the end.

I noticed that whilst I could beat Bing's qualification time on that track by about 3 seconds pretty easily, his race pace wasn't too bad. I was gaining maybe 1 or 2 seconds per lap provided I didn't crash on the supercross section.


Still, I'll have to find out how I fare against the AI in a 10-lap race on these new circuits (owing to having to manage suspension damage to a maximum of 10% per lap, which is difficult), but I DO actually wonder if it would be possible to tailor the aggressiveness of the AI driving to suit the number of laps? I was thinking whether this might be possible because it would mean that for shorter races the AI wouldn't need to worry as much about damage and they could take jumps a little better with this extra 'buffer'. I can probably guess your answer ("It will be too difficult to implement and it'll be a little unfair") but I just thought I'd ask anyway.

And on the mention of AI... I'd still like a 'slightly harder' difficulty, even if it's just for Race mode and not for Championship mode. On most circuits the top 3 AI are competent enough so they don't really need to be made any harder to beat (maybe 1 or 2% faster ... it's really quite marginal) but I was thinking this along the line of severely reducing the skill-gap between Bing (the best driver) and Siggi (the worst driver) to produce a closer field. Even an option that simply get rid of the 'skill-gap' altogether would suffice, even if it would just be amusing to see what happens at race starts when all the AI drive roughly as well as one another.
It's just that otherwise I find races usually boil down to 3 people - me and two AI. The slower cars have too much of a difference in race skill and very little action takes place because they all spread out too quickly. For most people I can see that this behaviour is perfectly reasonable, but an option like that might produce some more interesting races for the better players.
And ... the AI are rubbish at passing one another. I can see them pulling out to try but then they just slow down too much. They could do with being a little more aggressive with trying to overtake, at least on higher difficulties.


Also ... the AI are relatively easy to beat on Hot Rusk Reverse (well, the qualification time isn't lol). My main problem is just not crashing. XD.


At some point I'll try to put together some bug-reports, rather than just mumble about AI mechanics. But first ... I need to go 100% the championship. :mrgreen:
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Mac on Mon Jul 09, 2012 19:29

Actually, I have to somewhat take back what I asked about whether the AI would drive more aggressively with fewer laps.

Again, thanks to the almighty new replay feature ;) I found out that the AI do actually start to manage car damage after a few laps ... spotted it whilst watching an AI cam on Loopings ... first 3 laps he did 13% damage per lap to the engine ... then after that he started throttling the boost and went from doing 12-15% damage per lap to 2-5%. Was pretty interesting to see them do it.


And I beat Bing on Twisted Iron. Had to use the Primal, but it makes me feel so much happier to have trashed him :mrgreen: I also have an interesting screenshot where one AI's mistake on the loop on Multiplex caused a 14-car pileup ... and which meant that Siggi - the worst driver in the game - got a 2nd place finish XD.
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Etienne on Mon Jul 09, 2012 21:34

It's very rewarding for us to have players like you that analyses so deeply the game and ask for improvements. But what you're asking would take a lot of tweaking and testing time, and it will be notices by 0.1 % of the pilots :mrgreen:.
Son, to be honest, as our team it very small (and I'm the only programmer), we have to focus on other aspects of the game that are more critical in terms of quality and that are needed to raise the number of players (multiplayer demo and other features, sound, controls, mod-ability, being sold on steam). Also we are lacking time and money to do proper marketing and P.R. work, to find new clients, develop new projects to prepare the future.
It's not easy to choose on which aspect of the game we have to focus, but if I have to work on the AI, I would rather work on their ability to overtake while being less aggressive (they still have a tendency to shoot you while on your side or behind). Finding compromises on this while keeping a good challenge is hard, but the most annoying thing is being first in the last lap and being bashed by Bing in the last turn (I'm sure you know what I mean :mrgreen: )
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Mac on Mon Jul 09, 2012 22:45

That's fine. It was just a suggestion, anyway. I can understand that there are more important things that need to come first. :P


I still need to provide a list of bugs or things that should probably be fixed ... but trying to think (or drive) whilst drunk is difficult, so I won't bother. :P maybe tomorrow I'll manage it.


And maybe tomorrow people might be on multiplayer. o.o I looked today several times and never saw a session. I'd like to try and play people online again. I only tried it once to test whether it worked for me.. :P
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Etienne on Mon Jul 09, 2012 23:38

I'll send you an mp when there's a multi session, there should be a few this week during the evenings. More and more people are downloading the update.
Good idea to avoid writing bug reports while drunk :mrgreen:
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Mac on Tue Jul 10, 2012 13:01

You can send people MP invites? O.o or did I just misread you?


Anyways... eating food ATM so I will start a list here of things I deem to be 'bugs' or are things that I think should otherwise be looked at.

  • • That Editor Bug™ Already mentioned - you said you're looking into it.
  • • F-Jet jets are misaligned slightly (will post screenshot to demonstrate what I mean)
  • • Motion Blur produces glitchy-looking artefacts in certain situations:
    - when blurring sparks
    - when the camera is moving backwards (easily seen in replay mode)
    I'll post screenshots again as well.
  • • The "m" key does not work in Multiplayer (O_o)
  • • There are random stutters / jumps in game and in replays. Sometimes there is a jolt in frame rate, but sometimes there is a jolt in physics. This is best described as that randomly the camera twitches, or more extremely one of the car's wheels will suddenly jump and the car will try to spin.
    In replays there are moments where the cars briefly 'desync' from the replay data, and suddenly perform very erratic/impossible twitches. I'm not sure if this is related to the way they're recorded in-game or if it may be because I'm getting a different FPS in the replay than I am at that point in the race. Has the game recently been coded to utilise multithreading?
  • • In replays, engine sounds only play when cars are very close to the camera. When they move away the engine sounds very suddenly stop. This only seems to affect the AI cars.
  • • Not all cars produce smoke or dirt particles. This has actually been around since I first bought the game, but it is annoying that when following another car on supercross circuits you don't know whether that car is going to kick up dust on the offroad sections or not. I think they should ALL produce smoke/dirt particles.

  • The game behaves strangely when played on a dual-monitor setup (in my case both monitors are hooked to one graphics card. Some graphics options become unavailable, vsync doesn't work, and graphics in game are broken.
    This is only when one display is playing the game.Or at least I think this is the case (because I just disabled the second monitor and am reinstalling the game just to be safe..

I can't think of any others off the top of my head. Anyways, I'm running the game on max settings (except for AA, which is turned off). I have FXAA enabled in nVidia Control Panel (not sure if it may be causing any of these bugs ... maybe I should turn it off.) Vsync is turned off.

I'll post screenshots of things at some point.
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Re: Major update coming soon !

Postby Mac on Tue Jul 10, 2012 19:43

bug report screenshots

o_o

http://i48.tinypic.com/1xxs49.jpg
This screenshot demonstrates several bugs:
1) The cam being used in the screenshot "FollowNear" is otherwise impossible to get in Replay Mode. It should be included. I managed to get it because:
2) If the player is viewing an AI driver in the replay and the player car is respawned, the camera switches to the FollowNear camera. It shouldn't switch the camera at all when the player respawns.
3) As you can see the jets are slightly misaligned (they seem to 'point' to the left). This isn't the case that the car is at an angle - it's like that even at the race start and regardless of what direction the car is facing at the time.

http://i50.tinypic.com/pt1fr.jpg
First thought: WTF? View a replay, in a replay? /inception reference.
But yeah, that is the menu you are presented with if you retire, but don't immediately quit straight out (thus let the game run for a while with the 'game over' screen on). You can view the replay and see what goes on after you've retired, and at any point after you retire during the replay sequence you get that menu if you do as much as click on the window.
This also led me to realise that amusingly, the AI are also presented with 'game over' screens when they retire, too. Nice easter egg :mrgreen:

http://i49.tinypic.com/2yw5soz.jpg
Wasn't intended to be a bug, but does demonstrate one I forgot: If a car retires during the race, they don't show up on that results screen - but if they retire whilst it's up, then they show up with the message "is Race Over". All retired drivers should show up :/


And so not everything is doom & gloom, here's a nice screenshot I took of my car (I didn't realise at the time that screenshotting recorded the Fraps counter ... and no, I don't know why it says my FPS is 10. Worst FPS I get is 35. lol.

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